Is AI the end of large engineering teams?

[00:00:00] Nikola Mrkšić: I think we're seeing there is that there's a whole new generation of people who are definitely not developers by training, but they are thinkers. They will mop the floor with everyone else because they're just learning and that I guess, it's plasticity of their mind as a talent where they're able to just, like, pick things up quickly. And, you know, one, they're they're using, you know, like, cloud code. The next day, they'll be using whatever the next thing is, and they might have used, I don't know, perplexity six months ago for some of these things. They're doing some fantastic like, 20 year olds are doing projects that composite teams at Nuance would have charged $5,000,000 for.

Nikola Mrkšić: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of deep learning with PolyAI. Today, um, I've got our relatively new SVP of engineering, Helen Greul, with me. Um, before we start, please like, share, subscribe now that we've got that out of the way. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:01] Helen Greul: Thanks, Nikola, for having me. Uh, Yeah. It's, uh, interesting to have been interviewed by a CEO. It's either, like, a sign of trust or a massive trap. I haven't figured out which which one is it.

[00:01:14] Nikola Mrkšić: Trap or just a manifestation of, you know, startup CEO's egoism where they kinda let things go. Um, kidding. Uh, so, uh, I think we have had the great pleasure of you joining about two months ago?

[00:01:25] Helen Greul: Kind of ish coming up in my third month. Yeah.

[00:01:27] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. I think that, uh, I've, uh, I've really enjoyed working with you so far, as has Sean. And maybe for the start, we can just kinda go through a bit of your career, kinda like what you did before, and then we'll talk about why, uh, why you chose to continue your career with us.

[00:01:41] Helen Greul: Yeah. For sure. I mean, look. It's been one hell of a ride, Right? Like, coming up in my third month, this is genuinely, I can say, has been, like, one of the most dynamic environments I've been in as part of my career. And when I say dynamic, it's like, part of it is being in the forefront of technology, but also part of it is how, like, the team is running itself and, like, how, uh, decisions are being made. That's huge in terms of, like, cumulative, um, kind of speed of execution, I would say. So that has been the one highlight to me, like, just from like, the early signs that I have seen and something I'm really keen on talking about today. But, like, going back, I guess, to what brought me here, what led me to Poly, that was, like, I'm not gonna lie, was, like, uh, intense couple of weeks that my family probably remembers of me doing, like, full time soul searching

[00:02:35] Nikola Mrkšić: Mhmm.

[00:02:36] Helen Greul: Of, like, what I wanna be when I grow up, and so that kind of thing. Uh, and I think, like, some of the trends that I sort of, like, uncovered as I was doing this kind of, uh, reflection exercise is, like, the part of technology that I enjoy the most or, like, the moment of a certain technology that I enjoy the most is being in the intersection of, like, kind of emerging tech developers, but also enterprise. That kind of moment where, like, technology stops being Vibe or Blackmagic and is ready to become enterprise tech stack. And this is what I've done at Spotify. This is what I've done in, like, previous other places where, like, we were struggling for words to even describe what is it that we were building. And then couple of years later, this became Ubiquiti.

[00:03:27] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah.

[00:03:28] Helen Greul: And it felt to me that Pauli was approaching that sweet spot where, like, what you guys are building, what the team is building could be, like, the next kind of enterprise horizontal tech stack. It's just we're not there yet, but I'm excited for, like, all the advocacy, for all the reassurance, for all the, like, the education that needs to happen. Yeah. But, like, I have no doubts that this will happen Yeah. In a way.

[00:03:54] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. There's a certain, I think, serendipity of two motions that really don't tend to go together. One is, like, of a technology that's accelerating from kinda, like, the developer layer into something that can now be used by more and more people, technical or not. And the other being that, like, enterprise engine of business value, of implementations at scale, of something that works for a narrow use case and delivers a lot of value, but is usually not heavily commoditized and democratized thing. And I think we're, like, we're there, right, in the in the zone where, like, the two tunnels have met. And I think that's where it's, like, really exciting. What I was particularly impressed by, um, and what I wanted to ask you, uh, about I think the audience will find very interesting is looking at my cofounder, Sean, and kinda, like, his development as an engineering leader. I I think him and I have both agreed to, like, a mutual diagnosis of both of us being often struggling to articulate exactly what it is we see the direction is. And I think that what I've been incredibly impressed by I think at the end of the first week, you sent a document where it was, like, you know, a doctor's diagnosis of everything that we're, like, doing, why we're doing it, what people are not clear of or not. And I think with that, it was just clear that there's both, like, a clarity and an EQ that kinda, like, together come in to distinguish, like, an ability to then wrap an organization around an effort and then create a lot more, like, harmony in pursuing that goal, which is elusive and changes every week. So with that, I kinda wanted to ask you about how you think of the job of an engineering leader, manager going forward as this technology changes. Like, what stays important, and what goes away in terms of, like, technical strength, that communication? Or, like, what have been, like, your kinda, like, points of development as you went through your career and figured this out?

[00:05:46] Helen Greul: Yeah. And this means a lot, what you just said. So thank you. I didn't take it for granted. And I think that's partially maybe, like, English not being my first language. But you don't assume that things are obvious or things are clear. And then, like, articulation becomes important before, like, be because even one single sentence can be interpreted in so many ways. And I've definitely learned that the hard way. And I guess, like, not to preach, you know, Bezos' principles here, but, like, in a way, writing and putting your thoughts on paper remains, like, the ultimate act of clarity. So, yeah, that's why I think, like, clarity is like, philosophically, it's even more important. Like, it used to be important always for me, but, like, even more important when it comes to, like, setting the direction. But, yeah, going back to your question on, like, I guess, engineering and and what stays, what goes out of the window, like, we live in the world where, like, titles of, like, CPTMO, it's not a joke. Right? Like, I've met people who have that title, and that tells you

[00:06:48] Nikola Mrkšić: Okay.

[00:06:49] Helen Greul: Something about, like, how certain disciplines are being compressed. Yeah. I guess it's not always possible, but, like, you see maybe the direction where where Yeah. Where we're going, where, like, previously, engineers used to be t shaped. I think now leaders become, like, t shaped, w shaped,

[00:07:05] Nikola Mrkšić: star shaped. Mean?

[00:07:07] Helen Greul: T shaped is, like, means you have, like, a certain depth, and, like, you build breadth around that depth. So you have, like, a core discipline of, like, let's say, I don't know, certain technology, but that doesn't mean you can't do marketing. That doesn't mean you can't do product. This is just, like, you know, you deliberately expand your breath, and this becomes more and more of a thing because, like, just even to give you one example, like, I'm a back end girly. Like, I'm a back end data girly. This is, like, what what makes

[00:07:34] Nikola Mrkšić: the first time we've used the word back end girly on on the podcast, we will remember. This moment henceforth is okay. Okay.

[00:07:41] Helen Greul: Um, and I suck at front end just like like, this is not much

[00:07:44] Nikola Mrkšić: understood front end. I am helpless. It felt like this data flow thing that just exists. And I find it really interesting how a lot of, like I mean, I was always, like, hardcore back end as well. And I just remember people who are, like, otherwise non engineers almost would go around and blitz around and do fantastic things. And then, like, I'd see, like, not just myself, but, like, three other people who were, like you know, two of them went to the IOI, and they're, like, looking at the whole thing. So how does this work? And it felt like you're I don't know.

[00:08:11] Helen Greul: The magic of this moment is, like, genuinely, like, I suck class at front end now. And that's, like, that's really empowering. That's dangerous as well. But, like, I know that I can go, like, full circle.

[00:08:23] Nikola Mrkšić: Dangerous?

[00:08:25] Helen Greul: Uh, potentially. Right? Because, like like, you grow certain confidence maybe in the areas where, like, you haven't earned the right to be confident. Because I haven't built, like, you know, 250 UIs to be able to, like, develop that kind of taste, but now I can do that more than before. And that's, like, sort of empowering, and I can do like, if there is no one to do UI for me, I'll do a shitty job of it. And, like, it will be better. I will go far, like, further with this, um, like, two steps further than I was able to in the past. And that's kind of, like, how some of those disciplines are converging.

[00:08:58] Nikola Mrkšić: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:59] Helen Greul: But, yeah, I think what becomes harder is maybe, like, the amount of information you have to ingest as a leader

[00:09:07] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah.

[00:09:07] Helen Greul: Coming from, like, all the different fields. And this is why I appreciate, I guess, what Sean, the CTO, is doing because it's, like, in a way helps you to, like, compress your daily intake of information into, like, a certain really brief but useful digest of things. It's like you tap into, like, sales intel, you tap into market intel, and that becomes, like, a matter of survival because otherwise, you won't be able to keep up with all of that. So I guess we'll just have to, like, experiment and try new ways of of Yeah.

[00:09:35] Nikola Mrkšić: I mean, I've always felt like in a start up, there are these, like, nodes in the company. And, you know, with Poly, you'd know who who the people are. But it kinda tends to correlate to those that, for better or worse, can't shut off. And they're just following every single thread on Slack and doing that stuff. And not at least, like, what I what I see is those people are the best at building those tools. Like, Sean, building all the kinda, like, connectors, wikis, and other things because it's work that otherwise would have been done by him, me, and, like, three other people. And now it's like, well, here's, like, a little helping hand hand where 10 xers become a 100 xers. But it's very exhausting. Like, have you found, like, the days post, like, the massive identification to feel different, like, after this work?

[00:10:19] Helen Greul: Yeah. There is something about exhaustion. I think, like, it's not me shying away from intensity. I think it's maybe, like, the different kind of intensity that is exhausting, And I haven't really been able to, like, pinpoint what is it. Uh, but, yeah, like, some days feel especially draining where, like, you almost have to decompress from all of that.

[00:10:41] Nikola Mrkšić: I mean, it feels like the work is quite technical. It is technical. I mean, I've, you know, through where my life's took me over the past few years, I've forgotten what it's like to, you know, do real honest work, you know, to sit and, you know, spend a day in the ID and then, you know, more than a day and suck 2AM. And you kind of at the end of it, you can't really talk anymore. I think that's like that LLM psychosis has reawakened that feeling with a lot of people. And what I hear from a lot of even our clients, I just spoke with one of them, where they're like, it's hard to step back and live that life. But if you do, then you become kinda, like, superhuman at the other aspect of it. But how do you mix the the need to kinda, like, articulate it on, like, the human astral plane versus building just the kind of, like, the organic workflow.

[00:11:26] Helen Greul: Yeah. I guess and something about it that just, like, triggered my memory in my head as you were talking. Like, I remember telling my previous team, like, at at Multiverse, my previous company, like, I'm going back to the keyboard. They were like, oh, like, we see you, like, letting up from the inside because, like

[00:11:42] Nikola Mrkšić: Yep. Yep. Yep.

[00:11:43] Helen Greul: Yeah. Uh, not it's not every job where you get to do that. And there is definitely, like, a moment of, like, rediscovery and moment of, like, gratification because there are very few jobs that are as fulfilling as going back to the keyboard in some shape or another. Right? And this is what I think is, like, the the core driver of, like, a gentrification of the workflow because it's like the self fueling, like, self inflicted motivation that keeps you going, like, even through the hardships. And that is the kind of the right level of intensity where, like, you've spent quite a few hours at it, but, like, you don't feel drained from it, at least, like, not in my case. So I find, like, it's always a bit of, you know, the dial that you tune of, like, you know, systems, business, technology, and, like, you find yourself in one or the other corner. But, like, the days where, like, I'm in the technology corner, I feel, like, rejuvenated from it. Yeah. Um, and I think that's kind of the the directive that I've also given, the prime directive I've given to my leaders. Right? Like, you can't really, like, let go of that craft because that will keep you going as well as, like, this whole 100 x your team and yourself.

[00:12:49] Nikola Mrkšić: No. No. I mean, it's usually rejuvenating, I think, to all of us, you know, kinda like former technologists. Now we are that again and that, like I guess that's the t shape, but that I guess the star shaped is the polymath who just is good at everything. Is there a future for product as a discipline?

[00:13:06] Helen Greul: Oh, oh, tricky question.

[00:13:08] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I worked at Apple where, like, there's there's basically no product. There's just empowered engineering waiters, and it kinda feels like the star of that. Obviously, every every every answer is extreme and purely theoretical, but, like, there is a piece where companies like that will just further empower engineering managers who no longer then need the organizing, I guess, aspects of the product team. Right?

[00:13:31] Helen Greul: Yeah. I think the part that still remains, uh, and, like, this might be, like, the t in their t shapeness is more of, like, the the growth playbooks as well as, like, the product intuition. Like, you become good at pattern matching. Like, as a product manager, you've seen enough patterns in your career, so you can be like, oh, I've seen this movie. Like, I know the story, and that's in itself is worth something or, like, a lot, actually. Um, and then you can build, like you can layer technical aspects on top of it, or you can layer, like, a bit more of, like, growth or go to market aspects on top of it. But the the depth of it, like, the the intuition or, like, the pattern matching from the past, I think, is definitely there to stay. Yeah. Someone has to do it. Like, someone has to make those decisions. No.

[00:14:21] Nikola Mrkšić: I think I think it's the hard the hardest job. I mean, all jobs are hard. Every t shape, no matter where the t goes, is hard. But, um, yeah, product is tough because it's in the middle. Right? Kinda like marketing as well. Whereas, like, I see I've I've always at least felt that tech and sales are, like, at least, you know, one flank is covered by the ocean.

[00:14:39] Helen Greul: And the

[00:14:40] Nikola Mrkšić: ocean being customers or

[00:14:41] Helen Greul: You have your quota. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:42] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, maybe to go back to kinda deciding to join Poly and how you looked at that, um, when you look at the role of technology and kinda, like, how our space is evolving, how did you think about that whole piece as you looked at Poly versus other companies?

[00:14:57] Helen Greul: Yeah. I think the whole, like, psychosis. Right? Like, the AI, LLM psychosis, uh, that, like, the industry is feeling right now. There is lot of, like, smoke and mirrors in this. And you have to be really good in, like, your critical thinking, like, not to unleash my skeptic at everyone, but you sort of have to be when you're, like, making decisions like this, when you're choosing your next adventure, when you're, like, in the RFP process choosing your vendor, more or less the same. Um, and to me, that was, like, separating, like, the reality from the marketing. And where I think Poly, like, turned to be special is kind of I think first is maybe, like, research ethos. I don't know that it's, like, a widely known concept, but, like, having worked with research teams in the past or companies where, like, research arm is really strong, you sort of get that feeling of, like, they don't settle for status quo. Yep. If you're part of the company, if you're part of the team, it's almost like a guarantee that they will operate at the very forefront of what's possible with a given technology because that's kind of it's it's preprogrammed in their brain. That's how they operate. And it's not me telling you this. Like, you you know this better than me, but that's kind of the observation that I had from the past. I was like, oh, like, Poly has a research team. That is a signal to me. Then the other thing, I guess, is, like, a lot of companies talk about doing something something proprietary AI. And that's like in certain cases, this is just, you know, marketing speak for, like, our differentiation layers with the thing. Yeah. Uh, but yeah.

[00:16:35] Nikola Mrkšić: European skepticism. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[00:16:38] Helen Greul: I guess Polly's version of that was, like, actually, like, going really deep when it comes to, like, what the model is, like, who build the model, how the model is trained, where it gets the data, like, what kind of data, uh, does it get. And, like, not many companies have actual receipts of that Yeah. Uh, as in, like, a true proven track record of, like, the success of the technology. And the problem is very specific, so you don't have to think about, like, oh, is it this? Is it that? Like, the customer problem is very clear, and the solution is is proven by many, many years of doing this. So that just, like, removes the guesswork and gives you, like, clear data. So I was like, I really wanna be part of that environment. Um, so, yeah, that, I guess, like, the these are the key ingredients that did it for me.

[00:17:26] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. I think that the, you know, I think the moment when you joined was very interesting because that's where we kind of decided to open up the platform. So I think both you joining and Morgan, our CMO, felt like, you know I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan, so it kinda felt like that moment. It helms deeper. Gandalf shows up, and, you know, you're not about to be wiped out by by Orcs. And then we really, I think, needed a bit of, like, clarity help and just, like, object objective setting on the path to, like, the open platform. Uh, it's a moment that I'm hugely excited by simply because it's something we've been working towards for a long time. And I think it took quite a bit of time to kind of, like, first figure out what to build in that model layer that solves a problem that's all the way up in the solution layer. And, usually, you know, companies are blessed either to kinda, like, operate in some, like, b to c or b to d manner, and then, like, value spills from model to platform and over time, it grows. Or it's, like, enterprise solutions and just, like, hire an army of sellers and do it on repeat, which what we're doing very successfully. But I think that where we've always been an outlier is that it started from, like, a very deep model differentiation that I think we're well, I'm really excited that we're finally sharing that with the world. How do you look at, like, the whole, like, developer motion here? And what do you think the future of developers here, both enterprise ones, enthusiasts are? Like, where is the point of, like, maximum leverage for them?

[00:18:46] Helen Greul: Yeah. This is something I've been, like, really excited about, and it's almost like I have to keep myself on the leash of, like, not going, like, full developer maxing. Um, like, this is a really exciting moment, and that goes I truly feel privileged for, like, being able to join the team, like, pulling that trigger on, like, letting the technology out in the wild. Because as much as you can speculate about it, as much as you can, like, project things, you will never know what will happen with your technology in the wild. And, like, you're you're in for a ride. Like, that I know for sure because developers are very creative species. And sometimes, like, they can think of, like, so many creative ways of, like, using your product, making your product better. And, like, that niche of users is, like, evergreen and growing. Right? Because given, like, what's happening with the technology right now, like, some of the folks that, like, don't have technical background or traditional software engineering backgrounds, like, they can go pretty far with the technology. Yep. And, like, some people call them citizen developers. Some people call them, like, something else, maybe less flattering. Let's leave that aside. But, like, I guess, factually

[00:19:56] Nikola Mrkšić: Right now, I'm really interested. I like that. Okay. I

[00:19:58] Helen Greul: mean, white coders, I guess, became, like, more of

[00:20:00] Nikola Mrkšić: a a slur now?

[00:20:01] Helen Greul: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:03] Nikola Mrkšić: Okay.

[00:20:03] Helen Greul: Okay. So I think the more, like, socially pleasing ways citizen develop but that is to say that, like, I guess, if you think that, like, about the population of, like, your tinkerers, your enterprise developers, your software architects, like, that niche is only growing, and they're generally confused about, like, what's happening right now. Uh, so they need to build. They need to build fast. They need to have trust. There are some, like, critical production moments, like, runtime moments. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't really win runtime. And this is where, like, the difference between lab experiment and production Yep. Crisis becomes very evident. And I'm really excited to, like, to be able to support them throughout this because we need to give them like, we've learned eight years of, like, hard won knowledge, and we can successfully enable this population on it and, like, help them build the technology that they don't think about at night that that doesn't page them 2AM in the morning. And that's the part that I'm really excited about.

[00:21:01] Nikola Mrkšić: Does if they want it.

[00:21:03] Helen Greul: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, yeah, I think, uh, like, there's lots to be said and lots to be done in the space, both in terms of, like, enabling them, building a community around, like, this kind of new vertical that people are building. Because I think the democratizing that technology is maybe, like, the word that kind of I anchor on a lot. Uh, for a long time, voice was something like, you know, for the cool kids or something too complex or something too expensive. And now it's like, hey. It's your infrastructure. You can build on that infrastructure. Go build. We can help you. Uh, and that changes, like, the conversation quite a lot, and developers are genuinely very excited about, like, exploring something that didn't have access to.

[00:21:49] Nikola Mrkšić: A 100%. I mean, like, I, you know, I think when we started, like, the voice IVRs of old, some of which are you know, I don't think any of them compare to modern systems. But the real masterpieces are kind of like, I don't know, like a car from the sixties or seventies. Those, like, collector Ferraris and Porsches that obnoxiously wealthy people like to, you know, drive around London just because they're harder to buy and maintain than than the new cars. But, you know, the they're really good, and they were millions. Actually, they were tens of millions of dollars in CapEx to get to a point that they produce business value and then make the calling population want to, you know, commit self harm. So I remember meeting, um, one of the former CEOs of Nuance, and, you know, this is where we we started as an enterprise company. We're still very much like Enterprise First, but I remember him looking at our customer base and seeing both what we did with some former Nuance customers that are now our own at scale and be like, how? And I just saw that there was, like, a physical, like, you know, how can fire break stone moment where it was like, oh, like, this is possible now. Right? But then when you look at just, like, what modern coding tools enable, I feel like that, like, you know, slur be I almost feel like citizen developers a bit of a bigger slur because, you know, it's kinda like you're a civilian. You're being told you're a civilian. Right? I think we're seeing there is that there's a whole new generation of people who are definitely not developers by training, but they are thinkers. They're you know, I mean, I I I always remember, like, I grew up, like, competing and programming a lot. And, like, there were people who might not have necessarily been the best at, like, the algorithm or the maths of it, but my god were they good at scripting and building out, like, literally a test harness, like, as, you know, it sit down at a computer thirty minutes before you start to get a fresh computer. And they'd write out these, like, automated tests, etcetera, and, like, some basic slow algorithms that will crack a set of test cases for whatever problems you got, and they would test it. And they would guarantee that whatever they implemented to run-in under two seconds would actually work fast enough. It's not the same talent. And I think those same people now and I think that talent is not necessarily technical. I think that, you know, it's whoever's, like, helping people in, like, banking or legal or whatever. Whoever's, like, the most, like, technically apt person, like, their era is coming. Right? They will mop the floor with everyone else because they're just learning, and that I guess it's plasticity of their mind as a talent where they're able to just, like, pick things up quickly. And, you know, one day, they're using, you know, like, cloud code. The next day, they'll be using whatever the next thing is, and they might have used, I don't know, perplexity six months ago for some of these things. They're doing some fantastic like, 20 year olds are doing projects that composite teams at Nuance would have charged $5,000,000 for. And they're now doing it for some use case where they get a 100 calls of that type. Like, it's questionable whether even their effort is worth it, but the fact they're doing it means that they're having fun doing it. And that, I think, is the real inversion in that, like, this is not really fun. And I don't know. I the more I look at, like, the whole, like, are we about to run out of jobs and do nothing, I think it's preposterously stupid because I actually think these guys will become really wealthy and that they will solve these problems, and they have infinite leverage. But how do you think about the enterprise builder? Like, doing this in a company? Like, are they that person?

[00:25:17] Helen Greul: I think something of what you were describing, um, is probably quite common for, like, the integrator archetype where, like, you don't know necessarily, like, what is it that you're stepping into, but you have the confidence that you will figure this out. As in, like, enterprise integrations and the stack, and, like, if you think about it as a system, it's usually quite complex, and you don't know, like, what What

[00:25:42] Nikola Mrkšić: is this archetype? What is this methodology, maybe?

[00:25:44] Helen Greul: Uh, Yeah. The archetype, I think it's more like, you know, probably your systems architect, but, like, over modern type in a way because, like, integrations also became easier. And, like, that's the way to cut complexity because, like, previously, you've just even, like, integrating with your, I don't know, Salesforce, like, with the bespoke interfaces, it would take months. And now you can sort of, like, figure this out quite quickly. So enterprise development also, like, it was maybe 20% development, and the rest of it was just, like, figuring out, like, how to plug into all the different bespoke tools and solutions and, like, for this whole thing to make sense and still be up to the scratch with, like, a contractual CLO, um, or, like, SLA, SLO. But now it becomes I think the integration parts are also can be streamlined quite a lot. And, like, the whole thing is just, you know, collapses a little bit. Like, the complexity collapses, which gives, like, a bit of breathing room to enterprise developers. As much as, like, you can still you need to figure out, like, lot of unknowns, the whole thing just becomes much more streamlined and much more predictable than it used to be in the past. Like, at least in my opinion, I think those type of integrators, like, they don't care about, like, if it's Go, if it's Rust, if it's Python, if it's something else. Like, I can just, you know, plug whatever tools together and make them work. That's the kind of mindset that maybe, like, some of the developers struggle with who have been, like, commoditized to a certain tech stack. And integrators will, like, wipe the floor because they have, like, the art of the possible. It was always, like, the art of the possible because there was no other way. Like, you have to make it work. And right now, that's just, like, the mindset that you need to to have. Like, some people call it growth mindset. Some people call it, like, they see the art of the possible. So I think that specific flavor of an enterprise developer is probably, like, the ones that will make ton of money in their career.

[00:27:39] Nikola Mrkšić: I feel like these guys always ended up in the top jobs of, like, large corporate IT structures. Right? Because they were the the traders. Like, they passed information through, and I gave them leverage. And not leverage as a dirty word, but just, like, genuinely leveraging that they knew what was going on. Right?

[00:27:54] Helen Greul: Yeah. Yeah. Always. So, yeah, it's like the access to information and knowing what to do with that information, like, in a technical sense, is becoming, like, more and more of a superpower in a way too.

[00:28:05] Nikola Mrkšić: I mean, it's really fascinating. How do you see then, like, teams evolving in engineering? Do you think that we, like, end up having more atomic units of people, or, like, do we just kinda, like, build towards fewer people who are holding more of the context in their own like, do we all become these integrators, or is there value for a specialist?

[00:28:22] Helen Greul: Yeah. There is I guess, like, there might be value in in in specialism in, like, certain places. But overall, I think I see us, like, moving towards smaller, more nimble units where, like, we can all process, like, more context in our day to day, and we can go, like, slightly further in our disciplines, which means, like, certain jobs collapse. So, like, you may be as opposed to having a team of seven, which, like, used to be your one pizza team, now it's more like team of three because team of seven, like

[00:28:50] Nikola Mrkšić: Pizza for everyone.

[00:28:51] Helen Greul: Yeah. More pizza for everyone. So, yeah, I see this as, like, I guess, more nimble units united by some kind of company brain or shared context. So, like, at any point in time, you can, like, plug into that context and know what is it that you have to do in your day to day, and then go back to your, like, nimble unit and, like, move really quickly on your specific direction. So it's always, like, this balance of, you know, autonomy and alignment. Uh, but it's just, like, for autonomy, you need maybe smaller units that still are able to move quickly. And I think, like, from engineering, uh, fluidity, like, resources fluidity perspective, it also became easier in a way because previously, like, you had, I don't know, like, a team of 100. I used to have, like, a team of 100. And then it was not really a team of 100 because, like, it was only 20 who can do certain things, and there was, like, only 30 who can do other thing. So, like, it was never as fluid. Like, on the like, in the books, it was like, oh, I have a team of 100. But when I actually need, like, 80 to work on, like, a specific project, it was never possible. Mhmm. And right now, I can actually tap into that because, like, your, you know, Go Rust Python developer can all of a sudden do TypeScript and be pretty efficient at it. So it's like yeah. That kind of mobility is also empowering lot of organizations, I feel like.

[00:30:08] Nikola Mrkšić: It's going to be quite interesting. I mean, is there a future where, like, all these organizations are way smaller and, genuinely, the jobs go away? Or do you think that the economy, like, shifts to support more companies where all these people are jacks of all trades?

[00:30:21] Helen Greul: Asking all the hard questions today, Nicola. Uh, Yeah. I think, like, there is this, like, you know, the law of physics where, like, energy is constant. Right? And, like, I think about the say like, the complexity is kind of the same. Like, if Yeah. Complexity is kind of shrunk in one place, like, complexity is being added probably somewhere.

[00:30:41] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah.

[00:30:42] Helen Greul: Uh, so, like, I think the balance will be, like, about the same. It's just the jobs will probably move. Like, IKEA is, like, one interesting example, right, who have done it recently where, like, they moved their customer success, which was, like, a huge team of, uh, like, some hundreds of people. They moved them into, like, creative side, which is more like, um, design, like, interior design, some kind of creative side.

[00:31:08] Nikola Mrkšić: The meatball recipe.

[00:31:09] Helen Greul: Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, so I think, like, it's more about, like, organizational fluidity as opposed to, like, oh, like, we're gonna have lots of stuff. That's how I think about that, uh, personally.

[00:31:22] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. I mean, I think, like, with the whole, you know, like, uh, conservation of energy. I mean, if you when you think of, like, entropy just increasing forever, I feel like the more complex these things are, it actually becomes you know, I think of I forget which of the Matrix films this was, but, you know, you see a bunch of those, like, flying dangling things architecting itself around each other. And you're like, is this really the most elegant way to, like, fight the remaining part of humanity? And, like, probably not. Right? It just feels like, you know, a set of abstractions and programming languages and structures that are not really optimized, but I guess it doesn't really matter. But I think, like, yeah, cutting through that is probably gonna become has become. I mean, every ten years, we get, like, an extra layer, and it's not like the previous ones have gone away. It's just that when a really catastrophic bug happens, you get, like, a generation of engineers who don't even know what garbage collection is. I remember those bugs happening, like, as Python really took over, and, you know, they were genuine. Like, ah, like, there was almost, like, this architectural joy that I remember me and a few colleagues had. Where's it go? Oh, memory leak.

[00:32:24] Helen Greul: Cool. Yeah. Memory management. What is it?

[00:32:26] Nikola Mrkšić: Well, because you I mean, you hear the older Mhmm. Like, engineers just talk about it as if it's, like, a fact of daily life. Right? And we're like, wow. Cool. Okay. Now we know what it is. Right? And it's really bad. Like, it crashed out, like, EC two instance and everything everything died. Like, um, now you'd probably have things, like, responding, and you would have to, like, decide whether you're gonna even go hunting for it or just wait for, like, for Kubernetes to restart your thing and, like, it goes away. And maybe you're trying God knows what resources. It's something that you can fix. But, anyways, not to go off topic. Like, talking about that extra complexity and just, like, what I found interesting about dialogue in particular is that as we improve and we have massively improved the ability to build a better, more functional, more interesting dialogue system, there's always, like, this thing that we want to borrow from the future. Right? When I did my PhD, it was more about borrowing the ability to understand more in terms of, like, virtual language, to not use, like, very scripted vocabulary, and then that became solved. Right? Then I think, like, it became about the flows and the processes and, like, where the conversation can go. And then we built what we called harnesses today around models to give them the ability to still kinda, like, you know, guide the conversation back. But, um, when you think of agent studio and the harnessing around it, how do you think about that versus, like, the proprietary model? Because it kinda comes back to that whole, like, why baton a company which has a research team of talent no matter how special they are. Right?

[00:33:54] Helen Greul: Yeah. It's a really good question. And I think, like, we're sitting in this uncomfortable moment where, like, this is a transitional period. You're trying to extract, like, lot of knowledge from, like, quite a big population of the team who has done certain things, like, sometimes deliberately, sometimes following their intuition. And, like, you're trying to platformize it and, like, extract some kind of blueprints out of it. Yeah. And this becomes, like, either part of harness or this becomes part of product or this becomes just, like, a one off thing that we do for a customer. And you have to be able to say, like, what is what. Right? And I guess some of that complexity probably, like, looking in my crystal bow, like, models absorb more and more and more of this. So, like, there is maybe a reason to say, like, harness becomes a slimmer kind of layer. But, like, right now, I think this is kinda where lot of, like, institutional knowledge and proprietary differentiation sits. It's that layer which makes all the difference. I mean, like, there is still, like, you know, like, how intuitive this is. Like, how easy is it to build an agent? But, like, is it actually, like, the enterprise level solution? Is it actually delivering, like, on the promise of, like, certain, you know, containment rate? Or, like, does it flow naturally? A lot of this sits in the orchestration. A lot of this sits in in harness layer, and that's kind of the push and pull that we're experiencing right now of, like, having this done by, like, a really heavy, uh, professional services motion as opposed to, like, oh, this can be just, like, abstracted and happen without you even noticing that it happens. Um, so, like, that's a really, like, fascinating product management challenge, I feel like. But also, like, partially technology challenge, but, like, project management's challenge by the book almost.

[00:35:46] Nikola Mrkšić: No. Totally. I think that, like, you know, everyone's not fascinated by, like, forward deployment. But I think to really live forward deployment, there's that, like, return of information that guides product road map. And I think most of the companies that now talk about forward deployed are really just doing professional services and rebranding them with, like, a sexier name. But, really, it's just like, okay. You've implemented something for a customer, and, like, that was always part of, like, software delivery. Right? But I think, like, the part where you then figure out which of those really hard things that, like, doesn't need to be repeatable, or is it gonna be that different every time? It's hard. And, like, I think that, like I always believe that we do, like, 10 big enterprise deployments, and then, like, it's a platform business. I think we're not steadily really, I would call, is a a real platform business. But, you know, it took, like, 200. And those 200 are actually often, like, pockets of multiple in them. Right? So, like, different national businesses, different parts of a business. So overall, I think, like, when someone counted it up, there's, like, 2,000 different deployments. And it's, like, from a product platform layer, I'm not sure that any single person in the company had visibility of the whole thing.

[00:36:53] Helen Greul: Yeah. Speaking of, like, pattern matching, right, and, like, why do we still need, like, product intuition to be able to kind of condense it and and put that magic, uh, behind behind the surface. So, I

[00:37:05] Nikola Mrkšić: mean, I think one of the main things that we did, uh, in the whole, like, platform over whole now is really having the Adjantic Builder as the homepage and doing away with all the beautiful UI that we spent, honestly, almost a decade trying to perfect. I don't think we're anywhere near to perfecting it. We have many versions of it. How do you feel about, like, the the agent builder or codename GLOT, which will, you know someone's gonna cut this out of the video,

[00:37:28] Helen Greul: but will get us in trouble, I'm sure.

[00:37:30] Nikola Mrkšić: Like, how do you think about, like, that being the default, like, control panel pin ID, whatever whoever you are logging in.

[00:37:39] Helen Greul: Yeah. This is the parts, uh, I think that is democratizing and, like, just really making this technology accessible to like, regardless of, like, what path of life we came from, uh, almost because, like, if you think about conversing to an agent, like, in natural, like, plain English and bunch of, you know, sub agents and, like, background processes doing the the dark magic for you and actually, like, building something, like, that lives up to your spec, like, hand holding you through the journey of, like, testing. Is it good enough? Like, is it up to the scratch? Does it live up to your requirements? Like, being able to go full cycle and knowing that there is, like, a you are supported by, like, you know, years and years of accumulated expertise. I think that's the beauty of it. Uh, like, the new kind of design patterns of, like, there is this tags box and, like, lot of magic abstracted behind the tag box. I guess sometimes, like, lot of users feel of, like, I don't even know, like, what to ask it. Like, I don't know what I don't know. And I think what our interface does really well is kind of sort of nudging you, prompting you, like, have you thought of this? Have you thought of that? Like, oh, we need to do x, y, and z in order to make sure that it's, like, actually like, we're ready to go live. I think that's the the balance of, like, not being kind of too, uh, prescriptive about it, but at the same time, like, showing user the right path to get to where they wanna be. So I'm really excited about that path, and I think it's, like, equally suitable to, like, your technical leader or not so technical leader, like, your business user, your developer. Like, because for developer, I think as much as, like, we have other more, like, traditional developer lines of, like, oh, you can go with an API. You can go with an ADK. But, like, if you wanna understand how, like, sausages are made in a way, the agent studio, like, does it really well for you in terms of, like, explaining the reasoning and, like, what's actually happening. So you might as well, like, go through that simulation to be like, oh, now I understand the process.

[00:39:40] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like a safe gateway drug to, like, according to where yeah. I mean, I don't know if we can, like, embed this in the podcast, but it's, um, it's really powerful to see the whole thing being built in the background in the with the same effort that I know would have taken three months before. Or now you see the sketch. You go, like, you want this? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Click. Like, three minutes later, it's all built, and, you know, it's built with, like, the right, like, kinda, like, safeguarding and and guardrails. But I guess that's very specific and tied to us. Is there life after Cloud Code for, like, uh, is that just the new default interface to everything?

[00:40:16] Helen Greul: Kind of. I think, um

[00:40:18] Nikola Mrkšić: Do you use anything else?

[00:40:19] Helen Greul: I used to use WinSurf. I've experimented with, like, DeepSeq because who didn't? Right? And, like, the OpenClaw obsession didn't go past me because, like yeah. I'm No one is immune to that.

[00:40:32] Nikola Mrkšić: I I I am a treated addict of of my my my one of my three clawbots still lives, but, uh, uh, I think it's been superseded 95% of the claw code. But, yeah, it was a it was a fun time, though. Like

[00:40:44] Helen Greul: Yeah. No. There's definitely, like, an evolution of that, but I think the, like, the assisted nature of it will like, it's here to stay. I'm quite certain about that in terms of, like, maybe, like, clear contracts, clear, like, delegation rules of, like, oh, like, delegating to your master agent that runs, like, certain very specific jobs and things like that. But, like, it's definitely a bit more, like, collaborative. What I maybe miss the most right now is, like, having a clear, like, mob session or, like, your typical pair programming session. It's funny how, like, you know, human psychology starts to work in a way because it's almost like it's a safe environment. Like, you don't use your rubber duck. Like, Claude is your rubber duck. Mhmm. And, like, good old times of, like, you know, tapping someone on the shoulder and asking a dumb question, you don't feel like doing this or, like, you do less and less of it. It's just like, oh, Claude knows it all. Like, go talk to Claude. Uh, so that is the part where, like, I'd be curious to see what happens.

[00:41:45] Nikola Mrkšić: Well, I I find that I mean, that's one of the big reasons I was I think, like, the way the cloud is built to kinda, like, be your own volunteer that you kinda look in and you don't, like, get your head out of it. And, like, it's very powerful. It shows you things that you want to or don't well, mostly things that you want to see, yet it's not as sycophantic as ChargeGPT. So you don't really feel that way. Although, I've definitely met, like, strong engineers who kinda go at the end of just go, like, well, okay. If you like, you know, this thing telling you, you're smart and telling you everything's a great idea as you sit there burning, you know, millions and millions of tokens. I mean, I guess the answer is I do. But, uh, but, um, and I think most people do, which is, uh, as evidenced by Anthropic's revenue. Right? But I think it's really interesting to see just, like, the evolution of a new person learning to do it. Because I think once the affliction goes past, like, the first escape velocity, I feel like people, especially technical people, are really on a tear, and they just start building these, like, authentic loops and systems. And, like, they feed all their information into it, and it's, like, really, really powerful. But I think where the whole thing becomes a bit difficult is someone who needs to, like, go close to that first escape velocity doesn't know what to ask, doesn't know what's possible. It's hard to see and copy that behavior. And this is where I felt like OpenClaus and Slack were pretty good because they were you know, they could talk to each other and you could observe them talking to each other. And, like, it was also, like, much more personal and memeified. And, uh, I feel like tech spreads through that vector maybe the fastest, but yeah. Do you use anything else other than, like

[00:43:24] Helen Greul: Codecs, uh, was probably not my cup of tea. Uh, there's something personal about it. Right? Like, as much as I'm trying to, like, be scientific about it and have, like, you know, make data driven decisions, like, it's you like it or not. And there was something about it that I was just like, no. Um, like, retreating back back to my cloud. But it's maybe also, like, the setup that's like, it's not really as portable as everyone thinks it is. Like, for instance, I have, like, I have a skill that's called, uh, like, a lazy engineer skill called ponytail. It's almost like your lazy developer who prefers to, like, solve problems with one line of code. And it sort of, like, forces you into that mentality of, like, instead of writing, like, bunch of slop of code, it's just like, what's the minimal amount of intervention we can have there? Let's go for it. And, like, I found that, like, really, really, really helpful. Uh, and, like, having that setup and, like, knowing that, like, oh, like, if the code comes out of, like, uh, my GitHub account, it will be, like, that minimalistic and that brutal. And, like, being able to replicate that setup, like, in a new kind of coding environment is, like, more of a lift. So you sort of, like, you become an addict of something because, like, you don't have two days to, like, replicate that kind of setup in a different environment. It just becomes, you know, like, this is how it becomes sticky.

[00:44:45] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. No. 100%. 100%. Maybe final question. Do you use voice when you use those coding tools?

[00:44:52] Helen Greul: Yeah. Like, I'm am I crazy enough to talk to my computer? Uh, less so. I, uh, I guess I'm talking to my phone. Um, like, do I believe in people talking to their computer? I think I do. This is becoming more more and more of a trend, and there is a clear data to to back it up. Uh, right? And, like, even in, like, coding assistance, we see Yeah.

[00:45:16] Nikola Mrkšić: More and more of, like, people actually talking to them. No. No. Well, I mean, that's the question. Do you use do you use it with call code? Or

[00:45:20] Helen Greul: Uh, on my phone. Not on my computer. There's something, like, I guess, maybe me coming from, like, an older generation. Like, talking to my computer still feels like, yeah, I might need to have, you know, like, um, some kind of rethinking of of of that. But yeah. No. I didn't talk to my computer.

[00:45:36] Nikola Mrkšić: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I I'm I'm similar to you, senior leader of a very large tech company. Recently, gave me a lot of trouble for not believing that laptops would be shipped without keyboards. He was like, you're a voice company. How can you, like, possibly not believe in this? And I'm like, there's something in my personality where I see It might be that we don't speak English with a native accent, so we get, like, more errors. And then I think if you're bothered by that, it really breaks the flow. Right.

[00:46:03] Helen Greul: Right.

[00:46:03] Nikola Mrkšić: And then there are people who are not bothered, and for them, it's fine, or people who maybe just get a better transcription accuracy than we do. And then I think at that point, maybe you cross the chasm. But

[00:46:13] Helen Greul: Yeah. That's a safe theory. I haven't thought about that in in that realm.

[00:46:17] Nikola Mrkšić: Brilliant. Well, thank you for a fascinating conversation. Um, excited to have you on board and for all the impact you already had. And, uh, thank you all for listening. Um, like, share, subscribe, and, uh, we'll see you in the next one.

[00:46:30] Helen Greul: Thanks, Sal.